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  1. #31
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    DIY -6.1 manifold porting and polish

    Also will help to know that boost does not increase flow. It increase the density of what is flowing.


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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronan978 View Post
    I did smooth the bottom , but it was more of test run for the bits I was using, plus it was nice and easy for my son to access.
    So in your opinion, the whole “polish” portion of this would pretty much be null and kept to only the casting flash. Being the actual air with any velocity will not be on the surface inner and outer but flowing inside of those perimeters. If that makes any sense.


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    I've mentioned before in relation to laminar / turbulent flow within an intake tract. The parabolic curve seen in the image below effectively shows this (please note that I stole the first image I came across - this from a cardio vascular site :^). Actual flow through our intake tracts is no where near as laminar);



    The takeaway is that molecular air flow right at the surface is zero m / sec. As you move towards the centers of a / any tube, flow increases exponentially and is maximum at the physical center. All of this - is not conjecture. This stuff is the very basics of well-proven aero-fluid dynamics. Also, the amount(!) of turbulence within this or any intake manifold is chaotic (no organized direction or pressure gradient).

    Last edited by Hemissary; 02-11-2019 at 10:32 PM.
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBL.DWN View Post
    Interesting read. I have not looked at a 6.1 intake up close so I was excited to hear about those ports feeding the runner. Much like Lehmann style intake. Shame that’s not the case. Would be cool.
    Surface finish plays part in the boundary layer (dead air space). You can use it to help the effective csa and to get the air to bend in your favor.


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    How are you defining boundary layer here? In other words, if air at the boundary layer is not moving, at what point (in thousandth of a inch) above that is air (specifically) adding to aggregate flow - especially if it is not organized (anything resembling laminar flow)?

    FWIW, smoothing the low pressure zones (areas of highest velocity), the entry points of the runners has some merit. Understanding what the cross-sectional area of the actual runners is would also help define if even opening them up would also be of merit. Rest assured it sure as sh!t doesn't equate to 28HP.

    Smoothing any other surfaces is doing nothing but making it look nice and shiny.


    Quote Originally Posted by DBL.DWN View Post
    Also will help to know that boost does not increase flow. It increase the density of what is flowing.


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    Technically, it would be interesting to see the CFD modeling used by the OEM (who knows - maybe it was farmed out like the exhaust system) to see where all the transitions occur in such an unorganized environment.
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels

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  4. #34
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    Did both pics show up Ronan?
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels


  5. #35
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    Man, I feel like a big ol' dummy lol.

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by punisher69 View Post
    Man, I feel like a big ol' dummy lol.

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    nah...you were close :^D

    The rear nipple is for the brake diaphragm vacuum assist, the front / side is essentially the outlet for the rudimentary cast-in catch can before being ingested just aft of the TB.

    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels


  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    I've mentioned before in relation to laminar / turbulent flow within an intake tract. The parabolic curve seen in the image below effectively shows this (please note that I stole the first image I came across - this from a cardio vascular site :^). Actual flow through our intake tracts is no where near as laminar);



    The takeaway is that molecular air flow right at the surface is zero m / sec. As you move towards the centers of a / any tube, flow increases exponentially and is maximum at the physical center. All of this - is not conjecture. This stuff is the very basics of well-proven aero-fluid dynamics. Also, the amount(!) of turbulence within this or any intake manifold is chaotic (no organized direction or pressure gradient).

    I do recall reading this in a post a while back. There’s no arguing with physics , so I’ll probably icksnay on the polish portion and smooth out all the other areas that require addressing.
    Simon , what are your thoughts on this manifold over the 6.4 ?



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  8. #38
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    DIY -6.1 manifold porting and polish

    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    Did both pics show up Ronan?
    They did , but they just disappeared:(
    I remember reading and researching this during the last discussion, which is why I was hesitant in the first place to polish the wrinkle finish. My son won that argument though , that kid loves tools
    Billy , it’s all my fault for leading you down the wrong road. Mush brain ......


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    No need; easy to do based on their position :^)

    I saw what looks like either a casting crack - or simply some black sealer spider web in this pic from post #1, you should check:

    Nice find , I didn’t even inspect it that thoroughly yet !!!! If that’s a crack , I guess I’m going to be brushing up on my aluminum welding. Would you Jb weld that? I was thinking back gouge and run a bead then smooth it out , but I think like it’s steel, I’m not too familiar with aluminum.


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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronan978 View Post
    I do recall reading this in a post a while back. There’s no arguing with physics , so I’ll probably icksnay on the polish portion and smooth out all the other areas that require addressing.
    Simon , what are your thoughts on this manifold over the 6.4 ?

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    This is a fly in the ointment -comparing apples to oranges in your case. The 6.1 is aimed at mid-upper while sacrificing mid-lower basically relying on grunt (TQ) from cubic inches. The Apache 6.4 (SRV) allowing for gains everywhere under the curve. Since we already know that getting outta the hole with these heavy cars must happen as early as possible, the SRV has the edge, especially given it also offers significant gains throughout and the upper end due to runner length changes.

    If I had the choice of either intake manifold (what am I say'in...actually I do), if there were two identical engines / drivetrains / cars / mass / tires / etc I would choose the SRV because of the ability to get out of the hole more efficiently.

    If you're serious about comparison testing the two intake manifolds...it must be approached methodically. Otherwise the results will be misleading and not repeatable by others. Here's what's required;

    1) Conduct pulls with SRV manifold active and switching at 4800rpm (the manifold's actual design set point - engine configuration has absolutely zero bearing) to determine max HP / TQ at heat soak - to eliminate bias and tricks of the trade (make note A/F and timing)
    2) Change to 6.1 manifold and make enough pulls to determine HP / TQ, again(!) at heat soak with ZERO changes to A/F and timing to eliminate bias. There is not going to be significant A/F issues (if so - how much and in what direction noted PRIOR to ANY modifications)
    3) Then make A/F changes
    ONLY to match as best as possible the SRV manifold through all ranges, then make pulls at heat soak
    4) Tune both A/F and timing and repeat (A/F and timing must be noted for comparison).

    If the tuner goes straight to step #4, then there is no comparison and will be the most misleading when compared to the SRV manifold.

    Last edited by Hemissary; 04-03-2019 at 08:33 PM.
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronan978 View Post
    Nice find , I didn’t even inspect it that thoroughly yet !!!! If that’s a crack , I guess I’m going to be brushing up on my aluminum welding. Would you Jb weld that? I was thinking back gouge and run a bead then smooth it out , but I think like it’s steel, I’m not too familiar with aluminum.


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    No JB; given the fracture faces will be contaminated with oil and no adequate means to degrease, the lack of a decent gap and that a / any true 2-pt (amorphous) epoxy will soften (reach a point of glass transition) when it gets really warm / hot would cause it to fail. The other failure mode is that the fracture face will open and close a significant amount during repeated thermal cycling (expansion --> contraction --> expansion --> etcetera).

    Welding cast offers its own set of problems, namely actual joint final integrity by weld / heat-stress --> cooling and adjacent fracturing - either immediately or during the aforementioned heat-cycling while in service. So beware of this; last thing you need in this particular area is a hunk of weld departing the repaired area...
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    This is a fly in the ointment -comparing apples to oranges in your case. The 6.1 is aimed at mid-upper while sacrificing mid-lower basically relying on grunt (TQ) from cubic inches. The Apache 6.4 (SRV) allowing for gains everywhere under the curve. Since we already know that getting outta the hole with these heavy cars must happen as early as possible, the SRV has the edge, especially given it also offers significant gains throughout and the upper end due to runner length changes.

    If I had the choice of either intake manifold (what am I say'in...actually I do), if there were two identical engines / drivetrains / cars / mass / tires / etc I would choose the SRV because of the ability to get out of the hole more efficiently.
    So you think going to the 6.1 is going to net me less torque down low , but a better high end hp ? I’m kinda leaning the same way , but I really don’t want to sacrifice any torque. I was hoping for ~515/515 maybe a little better. I’m going to run it by Aj and Jim to see if it’s possible to set up a day to test both. He’ll be tuning for the 6.1 anyhow I just have to see if he has time for both.


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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    No JB; given the fracture faces will be contaminated with oil and no adequate means to degrease, the lack of a decent gap and that a / any true 2-pt (amorphous) epoxy will soften (reach a point of glass transition) when it gets really warm / hot would cause it to fail. The other failure mode is that the fracture face will open and close a significant amount during repeated thermal cycling (expansion --> contraction --> expansion --> etcetera).

    Welding cast offers its own set of problems, namely actual joint final integrity by weld / heat-stress --> cooling and adjacent fracturing - either immediately or during the aforementioned heat-cycling while in service. So beware of this; last thing you need in this particular area is a hunk of weld departing the repaired area...
    Well , then we’re going to have hope that is not a crack:( I guess cast aluminum is just like cast iron when it comes to welding..


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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronan978 View Post
    So you think going to the 6.1 is going to net me less torque down low , but a better high end hp ? I’m kinda leaning the same way , but I really don’t want to sacrifice any torque. I was hoping for ~515/515 maybe a little better. I’m going to run it by Aj and Jim to see if it’s possible to set up a day to test both. He’ll be tuning for the 6.1 anyhow I just have to see if he has time for both.


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    Test and find out :^)

    Quote Originally Posted by ronan978 View Post
    Well , then we’re going to have hope that is not a crack:( I guess cast aluminum is just like cast iron when it comes to welding..


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    Depends on where precisely that crack resides. At first glance, it may not adversely affect operation, but it warrants further close inspection.
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels

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  15. #45
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    DIY -6.1 manifold porting and polish

    I think some of these type of mods go hand in hand. Ported intakes. Ported throttle body’s. Ported heads ect. They are a package. Little Gains on there own but better gains together.

    I do find it interesting without getting off topic. A lot of people talk about dodge motors this and that don’t seam to help with certain modifications like gm and ford. Anyone know why?


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    Last edited by us1champ; 02-11-2019 at 11:54 PM.

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